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Guest Speaker: LORI SOARD, Ph.D
HOST WPLC Lyric: This will be a protocol session
HOST WPLC Lyric: please signal with a ? if you want to ask a question, and ! if you want to make a comment ON POINT
Lori Soard: I doubt it, G1. Little works on teenagers LOL
G1ft0fgabn0t: lol
ITZALLGOOD2373: lol
HOST WPLC Lyric: we may take a limited number of ! comments BEFORE some questions, so please be aware we do things slightly differently around here
HOST WPLC Lyric: This is because comments on point are only valid at the time the question is asked
HOST WPLC Lyric: Everyone understand?
HOST WPLC Dee R: Please keep on topic!
G1ft0fgabn0t:
HOST WPLC Lyric: Okay, Please Welcome our guest tonight, LORI SOARD, Ph.D
HOST WPLC Dee R: lol
HOST WPLC Lyric: Lori Soard has a Ph.D. in Journalism and Creative Writing, but she's hardly the stuffy academic type.
Lori Soard: Hi, everyone ~~~~ (waving)
HOST WPLC Lyric: Her romantic comedy, HOUSEBREAKING A HUSBAND, has received rave reviews from Romantic Times, Midwest Book Review, and the most important critic of all--her readers!
HOST WPLC Lyric: In 1997, Lori opened a multi-genre site for readers and writers and sold it in 2002 after hitting around 1 million visitors per year.
HOST WPLC Lyric: She helped start and served as first President of From The Heart, RWA Chapter; co-founded and served as chairperson of World Romance Writers; and served on the national board of RWA.
HOST WPLC Lyric: She currently runs two cooperative promotional groups for writers--divasofromance.com and promo-blitz.com.
HOST WPLC Lyric: In October, she'll be offering a workshop with Pamela Johnson at the Romantic Times Conference on MUSE GONE AWOL and their co-authored book
HOST WPLC Lyric: by the same title will be released in September. You can read more about Lori, enter her contests, or drop her a line at www.lorisoard.com
HOST WPLC Lyric: So let's welcome Lori, who will be speaking on one of her favorite subjects: PLOTTING!
HOST WPLC Lyric: :::: Applause::::::::
Lori Soard: I'm glad to be here FINALLY--after my stranger loss of power last week. No storms or anything.
DianeFarr: yay!!!! welcome Lori
ReneeMarieRoy: Hello, Lori
G1ft0fgabn0t: <><><>clapping<><><>
JES No Time: Thanks for coming Lori
TrounceM13: Welcome, Ms. Soard.
ITZALLGOOD2373: <<<<<WAVE>>>>>
ITZALLGOOD2373: Hello
HOST WPLC Lyric: Lori has hosted on AOL so many times, that I will let Donna run the queue and Lori run the session
HOST WPLC Lyric: for the most part.
Fjm3eyes: Hi Lori
G1ft0fgabn0t: lol
Lori Soard: I do have a "formal" lesson prepared but I'd like to just kind of zoom through it and leave a lot of time for questions.
Lori Soard: Does that work for y'all?
HOST WPLC Lyric: Everyone colors off except for Lori -- take it away, Lori
HOST WPLC Lyric: sure!
ITZALLGOOD2373: yes
DianeFarr: zoom away
HOST WPLC Dee R: Lori, would you like to start off with your formal part, then we'll break for questions and comments.
Lori Soard: If I start typing too fast, just holler.
HOST WPLC Dee R: So please hold off on ? and ! for now, gang
Lori Soard: GMTA, Dee
Lori Soard: From Aristotle to Northrop Frye to Joseph Campbell, writers through
Lori Soard: the ages
Lori Soard: have been aware of a basic structure that drives stories. What is
Lori Soard: amazing is...
Lori Soard: how similar the theories of all this philosophers is. As part of my...
Lori Soard: Ph.D. dissertation, I studied mythes and story structure and found some...
Lori Soard: similarities. There is a particular pattern to stories. I'm going to ...
Lori Soard: quickly go over Joseph Campbell's story structure. Some of you may have heard this before but it never hurts to review...
Lori Soard: I always find something new to use...
Lori Soard: He wrote a book entitled...
Lori Soard: The Hero's Journey
Lori Soard: Actually....that isn't the exact title.
Lori Soard: But close enough for the purpose of this chat
Lori Soard: highly recommend reading it. I want to go over his...
Lori Soard: story points because they are so effective for all stories, from children's...
Lori Soard: books to romances to mystery. They work across the board, which is ...
Lori Soard: really amazing.
HOST WPLC Lyric: The Hero with A thousand Faces?
Lori Soard: Thanks, Sry. That's it The WRITER's JOURNEY is by Chris Voegler and breaks down
Lori Soard: Campbell's theories
Lori Soard: I got them confused for a minute
HOST WPLC Lyric: Easy to do
Lori Soard: Okay....here is the basic breakdown and I will pull in parts from each book simply to make it easy to understand...
Lori Soard: Ordinary World--This is the character's everyday life.
Lori Soard: Call to Adventure--Someone or something challenges the hero out of his...
Lori Soard: everyday life. The heroine is offered a promotion but it means she everyday life. The heroine is offered a promotion but it means she
Lori Soard: has to travel back to the small community she fled at the age of seventeen.
Lori Soard: Refusal of the Call--The hero thinks of all the reasons he shouldn't
Lori Soard: take on this adventure/problem. Why is this the worst possible choice for him?
HOST WPLC Dee R: Forever, we are on protocol, please respect that.
Forever7always: what is protocol?
Lori Soard: Just a quick reminder that you can use the handy ignore feature by double clicking someone's name in the buddy list
HOST WPLC Dee R: I will IM you
Lori Soard: Meeting the Mentor--Someone says or does something that makes the
Lori Soard: character
Lori Soard: realize he/she should take the call/adventure.
Lori Soard: Crossing the First Threshold--This is when the character takes the
Lori Soard: first step toward change. The heroine accepts the promotion.
Lori Soard: Tests, Allies and Enemies--This makes up most of the middle of your book and
Lori Soard: this where your hero tries different strategies to reach
Lori Soard: his goal and fails time and time again. He makes friends (allies) along the
Lori Soard: way as well as enemies (villains). He has to pass tests. When one attempt at
Lori Soard: his goal fails, he has to find another way around the problem. Let's go
Lori Soard: back to the heroine. Let's say her story goal is to gain acceptance in the
Lori Soard: small town she comes from. She tries to join the local PTA but they freeze
Lori Soard: her out. She buys a house in a nice area of town and the neighbors refuse
Lori Soard: to talk to her. She keeps trying things until it seems as though she'll
Lori Soard: never win.
Lori Soard: Just a coule more...
Lori Soard: Approach the Inmost Cave--the hero is starting to realize that he
Lori Soard: must change in order to accomplish his goal. He can't achieve his goal
Gndvll314: Hi, y'all
Lori Soard: superficially
Lori Soard: Reward--The hero is rewarded somehow for his efforts. You can't have
HOST WPLC Lyric: Please we are in protocol, that means NO ONE TALKS but LORI
Lori Soard: you character suffer suffer suffer and keep it believable that she is
Lori Soard: still trying. There must be a small reward in there somewhere.
Lori Soard: The Road Back--The hero must return with the "elixir" or the answer to his dilemma.
Lori Soard: Resurrection--You have to SHOW how the character has changed.
Lori Soard: Return with the Elixir--This is your resolution. You tie everything up.
HOST WPLC Lyric: That is really quite perfect a description!
Lori Soard: Okay...now that was whirlwind, so please, if you need me to send you that list, let me know or save the log....
Lori Soard: Very quickly...
Lori Soard: a lot of that might seem rather vague and many different writers
HOST WPLC Lyric: Take your time Lori
Lori Soard: had different thoughts on these theories (Thanks, Sry)
Lori Soard: Aristotle's Poetics focused on plot. Vladdimir
Lori Soard: Propp focused on the character's struggle. So, let me try to break this
Lori Soard: down a bit so you can USE it to plot your stories, even if you plot them in your mind
Lori Soard: 1) You must give your hero a real problem. This problem can't be
Lori Soard: minor...
Lori Soard: has to be life threatening or life changing. It must be something that...
Lori Soard: forces your hero to change the way he sees the world and the way he responds.
HOST WPLC Dee R: Gndvll314, just sent you an email on tonight's session. I couldn't IM you
Gndvll314: Thank-you.
Lori Soard: The way he responds to the world...
Lori Soard: 2) The hero must deny that there is a problem or run from the problem
Lori Soard: 3) He is forced to face the problem and make a decision to DO
Lori Soard: SOMETHING ABOUT IT. This is around the end of the third chapter in most books.
Lori Soard: This is where your character really enters into the adventure and there is
Lori Soard: no turning back.
Lori Soard: 4) Your character, by human nature, will first try the easiest
Lori Soard: solution. Of course that CAN'T work or your story would be over. So, he must then...
Lori Soard: try the next hardest solution.
Lori Soard: 5) Every time your character tries a solution, you must throw a setback in...
Lori Soard: front of him. One step forward and two back.
Lori Soard: About 3/4s of the way through your book you must throw a horrible moment
Lori Soard: in front of your character. A black moment. This is when things seem as...
Lori Soard: though they could not possibly get any worse. How will your character ever
Lori Soard: overcome and meet his story goal?
Lori Soard: 7) The character must change as a result of this challenge. He must
Lori Soard: decide to change and overcome this obstacle. Let me give you an example.
Lori Soard: Let's say you are writing a suspense. The hero has been hired to protect a
Lori Soard: child but the child is kidnapped in scene 1, so the story goal becomes to get
Lori Soard: the child back.
Lori Soard: As the hero works at getting the child back, one setback after another
Lori Soard: occurs. The money he is taking for the ransom flies out of the helicopter
Lori Soard: window; the kidnappers don't show up at the agreed upon spot, he is in a bad...
Lori Soard: accident and doesn't make it to the pickup place, he thinks he has located...
Lori Soard: the abductor's hideaway but discovers it was a ruse.
Lori Soard: The black moment might be that he thinks the child is dead. Things couldn't...
Lori Soard: get much worse than that, could they? Now let's say throughout this book...
Lori Soard: you've set up the idea that the hero is terrified of heights. The only way...
Lori Soard: he can be sure that the child is dead is to climb to the top of a high tower...
Lori Soard: He has to change and overcome that fear in order to rescue the child
Lori Soard: (this is a simplistic internal conflict, but it should help you get the idea.)
Lori Soard: 8) Once the character has changed, wrap things up quickly. Tie up ...
Lori Soard: loose ends and leave things happily-ever-after.
Lori Soard: Can you have an unhappy ending? Sure. I just don't like them and most genre...
Lori Soard: fiction doesn't allow them. Even horror novels generally tie things up and the good guy wins.
Lori Soard: Okay....phew!
HOST WPLC Dee R: lots of good information
HOST WPLC Lyric: Lori, would you please talk more about the happy vs satisfactory ending?
Lori Soard: Whirlwind explanation of the main points you need in a plot but I wanted to allow a lot of time for questions.
Lori Soard: Sry, sure....
HOST WPLC Lyric: I think for many writing romances especially they don't understand that romance is happy, women's fiction is satisfactory
Fjm3eyes: Yes, Lori, Please........
Lori Soard: An ending can be satisfactory without being happy as long as it makes sense and ties things up...let me try to come up with a couple of examples...
Dianeinboulder: these days, the movies have alternative endings, what do writers think about those?
HOST WPLC Lyric: Danielle Steel?
Lori Soard: Any specific book you're thinking of Sry?
ITZALLGOOD2373: To tell you all the truth I love sad endings.
HOST WPLC Dee R: Lori, maybe you can tie in Dianein boulder's question
Dianeinboulder: something could go wrong and change the ending entirely
HOST WPLC Lyric: All of hers, really have emotionally satisfactory endings
ITZALLGOOD2373: They make the story so much more realistic
Fjm3eyes: I write horror, and I'm not sure a happy ending is mandatory
HOST WPLC Lyric: the first husband dies, but she finds love again, or vows to go on without the child
Lori Soard: Itz, there is nothing wrong with a sad ending as long as it is in a genre where the reader expects it.
HOST WPLC Lyric: she searched for, but was adopted and happy with another family
Lori Soard: The ending does have to make sense and the reader should leave feeling satisfied as Sry mentioned.
ITZALLGOOD2373: Yes, true. But what genre should have happy endings and what kinds shouldn't
Lori Soard: Otherwise, you risk losing a reader.
DianeFarr: !
Lori Soard: Good example, Sry. Sort of a bittersweet ending.
HOST WPLC Lyric: Diane, ga
HOST WPLC Dee R: Lori, wnat to go to protocol now?
Hillwithit: !
Lori Soard: Itz, that's a hard one to answer because it is (yes protocol please) going to depend
HOST WPLC Lyric: we are on protocol with everyone, I think you mean questions, right Donna?
DianeFarr: Are there any genres where a sad ending is acceptable? I can't think of any. Even in horror, if the monster isn't killed (leaving room for a sequel),
Lori Soard: not only on the genre but subgenre and line
HOST WPLC Dee R: Comments first from DianeFarr, then Hillwithit
DianeFarr: at least the main characters of THIS book have to survive and vanquish. Right? ga
HOST WPLC Lyric: I thought "Through a Glass Darkly" by Karleen Koen had a rather sad endingLori Soard: The only place I've really ever seen the bad guy win in the end is in literary fiction, Diane. However, there are "sad" endings I guess. A good example is MESSAGE IN A BOTTLE
Fjm3eyes: ?
Lori Soard: Where the hero dies--not much chance of the romance continuing
HOST WPLC Dee R: Forever7always...if you have a question or comment, type in ? or ! and I'll call on you.
HOST WPLC Dee R: otherwise, please find another room
HOST WPLC Lyric: would you like to find out?SarahStNy: do it
Lori Soard: Anyone else think of an example?
Lori Soard: MOST genre fiction has a satisfactory ending
HOST WPLC Dee R: Okay, back to protocol
Lori Soard: Maybe "happy" isn't the right word. ga
HOST WPLC Dee R: Hillwithit...comment
HOST WPLC Dee R: then Frank with question
Hillwithit: Isn't the issue making sure we have a "dramatically satisfying" ending, not necessarily a "happy" ending? (Gone With The Wind, To Kill A Mockingbird, etc. don't have "happy endings" per se, bu they have very satisfying endings.)
Hillwithit: ga/
HOST WPLC Dee R: Lori, do you wish to comment?
ITZALLGOOD2373: !
TrounceM13: !
Lori Soard: Yes, Hill. Absolutely. Your goal is to have your reader walk away from your book.
Lori Soard: thinking...
Lori Soard: I can't wait to read the next book.
Hillwithit: !
Lori Soard: You don't want her to put it down and think to herself how much she
HOST WPLC Lyric: Tess of the D'Ubervilles
Braguine: !
Lori Soard: hated the ending or how she doesn't feel that the book was wrapped up successfully and rewrite the entire thing in her head...
Mzdragonlady: !
HOST WPLC Dee R: Itzallgood, Trounce, Hillwithit, Braguine...order of comments, then poor Frank with his question. LOL
Lori Soard: the exception of course would be a book that has sequels, where you want them to go out and buy the next book. ga
ITZALLGOOD2373: Wwhat kind of books should have a happy ending??
Lori Soard: Sorry, Frank LOL
Werewolfsevn: ?
Lori Soard: Traditional romances have what I'd call "happy" endings.
Lori Soard: Traditional mysteries...
Lori Soard: the mystery is solved...loose ends are tied up....
HOST WPLC Dee R: Trounce, Hillwithit, Braguine, MzDragonLady...order of comments, then Frank, then Werewolfsevn for questions.
Lori Soard: horror...the bad guy/demon/whatever is defeated, etc.
ITZALLGOOD2373: Alright thank you
HOST WPLC Dee R: Trounce
TrounceM13: I can think of numerous examples in literary fiction where the bad guy either wins or it's unclear and where loose ends aren't tied up.
ITZALLGOOD2373: Yes, leaving alot of room for a sequel
TrounceM13: "Light In August", "Invisible Man", "As I Lay Dying"...
TrounceM13: "The Free-Lance Pallbearers"
HOST WPLC Dee R: comment, Lori?
Lori Soard: Yes, as I said earlier, literary fiction is a different animal. I'm talking about genre fiction for now. I really don't write literary fiction, although I've read some of it. ga
TrounceM13: "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."
HOST WPLC Dee R: Hillwithit
HOST WPLC Dee R: ga
Hillwithit: Yes, and I think the goal is also to have them finish the novel and feel like they've been through a full, COMPLETE experience, it is fully over for them emotionally, they are satisfied/satiated. ga/
Lori Soard: Yes, good point, Hill. Now....
Lori Soard: you are certainly welcome to write any kind of ending to your mystery that you want...
AWeiss4338: !
HOST WPLC Dee R: Braguine, ga
Lori Soard: leave loose ends and let the main character die...
Braguine: I think I have managed to convert sad (strong) endings by following with a satisfactory epilogue--what's your opinion ? this is in international thrillers
HOST WPLC Lyric: Is Frank next, Donna?
Lori Soard: but it may be very hard to sell to a publisher. ga
ITZALLGOOD2373: !
HOST WPLC Dee R: We can break for 2 questions..Frank than Werewolf..
Lori Soard: Braguine, I've seen epilogues done very well. I don't see anything wrong with that as long as the reader is satisfied in the end ga
Lori Soard: Good idea, Dee. Poor Frank LOL
Braguine: thank you
HOST WPLC Dee R: then MzDragonLady, Aweiss and Itzallgood for comments
HOST WPLC Lyric: Remember we can only accept a few comments per question, guys
Fjm3eyes: Are happy/good endings mandatory in horror fiction? All types of horror? GA/
HOST WPLC Dee R: Frank, ga
Lori Soard: Frank, that's a good question.
Lori Soard: There are some sub-genres within horror just as with romance and mystery....
Fjm3eyes: thanks
HOST WPLC Dee R: Werewolfsevn
Werewolfsevn: This may sound like a strange question, but who should determine the course of your story: the writer or the characters? ga
HOST WPLC Dee R: ga
Lori Soard: Let's take a look at some books by the King of Horror, Steven King...
ITZALLGOOD2373: GREAT, hes my favorite!
Lori Soard: It may not be HAPPY but the bad guy is usually defeated--at least for the moment.
Lori Soard: Does that help?
BrownDvs: He's Rd's too.
DianeFarr: !
HOST WPLC Dee R: Frank, that was your question...does it help?
Fjm3eyes: Yes, a little
HOST WPLC Lyric: I think the definition of happy is different for horror, for example, than romance
Lori Soard: Werewolf....it depends on the story. I believe that you should always have a plot, even if it is only outlined in your head...
Lori Soard: However....
HOST WPLC Lyric: how can you be happy after half the town is wiped out, you can only be relieved
HOST WPLC Dee R: MzDragonLady, Aweiss, and Itzallgood, then DianeFarr
Lori Soard: don't be so tied into your plot that you can't change if the characters go in a fresh direction that works
Lori Soard: ga
Rdpelleg: !!!!!!!!!!!
HOST WPLC Dee R: MzDragonLady
Mzdragonlady: I was going to saythat Stephen King
Mzdragonlady: novels leave me unsettled alot of the time. Some mysterys leave doubts
Lori Soard: Let's look at THE STAND, Frank. The book is hardly happy. It starts off with almost everyone dying...
Mzdragonlady: things you chew on later
Lori Soard: there is a huge battle between good and evil...
Lori Soard: but in the end good wins. However, I wouldn't exactly call it a "happy" ending because there is still so much to rebuild and doubts about whether it can be done.
Lori Soard: Many of the main characters die for the cause.
Lori Soard: However, it is SATISFYING because good does win over evil.
Fjm3eyes: but Randy Flagg gets it in the end.............
JES No Time: !
Lori Soard: Right--you have to give that to your reader.
Lori Soard: Can I give you an exact formula for your book?
Fjm3eyes: reaps what he sowed, you might say
Lori Soard: No. I wish I could. I could package it and get rich
HOST WPLC Dee R: Okay, Aweiss, Itzallgood, dianefarr
Mzdragonlady: I prefer loose ends tied up when I read
Genjii555: ?
Mzdragonlady: ga
DianeFarr: Happy or sad or ambiguous, what you can't do is leave loose ends. The reader can't turn the last page and frown ("You mean ... that's IT?"). You have to let everybody know what happened to old so-and-so from chapter 2.
HOST WPLC Dee R: Aweiss, ga
AWeiss4338: I've noticed that it's sort of 'cutting edge' today, to have an unhappy ending. I hate it, I won't read a book with an unhappy ending. It is literary fiction, mostly, but it's showing up in the mainstream a lot more.ga
DianeFarr: oops, I jumped the gun - sorry
HOST WPLC Lyric: np Diane
HOST WPLC Dee R: Itzallgood, then Genjii555 (Diuane already got her turn, lol)
ITZALLGOOD2373: Stephen King is a master of Horror, and suspence. Hes a god, and I would die to meet him. So dragon i disagree.
ITZALLGOOD2373: You too Weiss
Lori Soard: Right, Diane. That makes for a very ticked off reader.
ITZALLGOOD2373: I love sad endings
ITZALLGOOD2373: ga
HOST WPLC Dee R: okay, Genjii (aka Tiff)
HOST WPLC Dee R: ga
Genjii555: How much should formulas be relied upon?... I mean, can't too much formulaic writing get the writer stuck in a rut... feeling they MUST stick to the formula and thereby ruining the creative flow
Lori Soard: Genji, if you are writing GENRE fiction, then you really do need certain elements...however..
HOST WPLC Dee R: ?
TrounceM13: !
Lori Soard: there are so many directions you can take the elements I mentioned--they are so basic--that it is hard to write the same story twice.
Lori Soard: There really ISN'T a formula but...
Lori Soard: if your character isn't facing a problem, then you risk boring the reader....
Lori Soard: if your character doesn't change and grow then he/she is stagnate, etc.
Lori Soard: These are just basic guidelines for you to look at when you're plotting.
Fjm3eyes: !
Lori Soard: You don't have to use EVERY
Lori Soard: element I mentioned in every book.
Werewolfsevn: ?
Lori Soard: Think of it like a smoothie...
Lori Soard: Shake in some ice..
ITZALLGOOD2373: I'm sorry everyone, and excuse me to Lori. I have to go for the night, see you all next week.
HOST WPLC Dee R: Trounce, Frank, than Dee (me) and Wolf
Lori Soard: Throw in some strawberries
Lori Soard: Add the ingredients YOU like ga
Lori Soard: G'night ITZ
Lori Soard: Thanks for joining us
TrounceM13: My opinion is that one should take more of an intuitive approach to writing when possible.
HOST WPLC Dee R: Trounce, ga
ITZALLGOOD2373: Thank you again, you are a very interesting author. And I would love to stay. Good luck
HOST WPLC Dee R: night, Itzall
TrounceM13: I mean, writers write and scholars can determine formula. Not to say that one person can't be both scholar and writer, but I think overanalyzing one's story is risky.
HOST WPLC Dee R: Lori, any response to Trounce?
DianeFarr: !
Lori Soard: I'm not sure what Trounce means by overanalyzing.
HOST WPLC Dee R: Frank, Diane for comments, then Dee and Wolf for questions
Braguine: !
Lori Soard: Might be the difference between plotting and seat-of-pants writers. ga
HOST WPLC Dee R: Trounce, please elaborate...
TrounceM13: I'm saying that while the information on plotting is very interesting...
TrounceM13: I think writers risk stifling themselves if they say, "Okay, this is number 9 so I have to have a conflict here..."
Dhewco: (bye everybody)
Lori Soard: Trounce...I think you're looking at the points I made as a very rigid structureLori Soard: that you have to go from point A to Poin B and it is not like that at all....
Lori Soard: You can use Point B and leave out C and skip to D....
Genjii555: !
Lori Soard: But it really is important to understand the elements that make up a good plot...
HOST WPLC Dee R: flexibility, right
Lori Soard: THEN you can get creative.
TrounceM13: Sorry. I was only looking at it rigidly from a hypothetical standpoint.
HOST WPLC Dee R: Okay, Frank, Diane, Brag, then Tiff for comments
Lori Soard: Exactly, Dee. I hope I didn't sound like you have to do this and this and this and don't leave out this
Lori Soard: That would make for quite a zany, and long story, I think Lori Soard: ga
HOST WPLC Dee R: Then break for questions: Dee and Wolf
Fjm3eyes: I think maybe be have to define genre fiction. ga/
Fjm3eyes: and ?
HOST WPLC Dee R: okay, Frank...comment and question, lol
Fjm3eyes: I mean, are we saying genre fiction can't be literary and vice versa? Ga/
Lori Soard: Frank, of course each can have elements of the other.
Lori Soard: HOWEVER...
Lori Soard: I am speaking about COMMERCIAL fiction...I want to make a living at my writing...
Lori Soard: I have no desire to be a starving artist ...
Lori Soard: and commercial fiction TYPICALLY calls for certain elements...
Lori Soard: Of course there are exceptions to the rule. There always are, but if you look
Lori Soard: at the majority of fiction on the shelves in your local bookstore...
Fjm3eyes: !
Spkale: !
Lori Soard: you will see commercial fiction. Mystery, Romance, etc.
HOST WPLC Dee R: okay, Diane, Brag, then Tiff
Lori Soard: mainstream
DianeFarr: Trounce, it helps to know the "rules" even if you ignore them while you write, because if your story bogs down you can waste a long time in frustration, trying to figure out what's wrong. Rather than beat your brains out, it's ...
HOST WPLC Dee R: Diane
DianeFarr: helpful to have some "rules" to refer to. Then you can have an "aha!" moment. Like,
DianeFarr: "I see what's wrong. My hero is boring because his problem isn't important enuf." Or "he doesn't change." Or whatever.
DianeFarr: ga
TrounceM13: Spelling does too, apparently.
BrownDvs: lol
Lori Soard: LOL
DianeFarr: lol
Lori Soard: I think maybe I jumped into some descriptions of commercial fiction and we should have stopped and described what that was first. So, if anyone has follow up questions after the chat is over feel free to email me
Lori Soard: There is one thing I want to stress about plot though...
Lori Soard: conflict
Lori Soard: conflict
HOST WPLC Dee R: please go on with the group
Lori Soard: ga
Lori Soard: Any other questions?
Fjm3eyes: Perhaps we should define literary fiction, then Ga/
Genjii555: I appreciate you saying that... the flexibility thing... b/c most make it seem as if editors will use your manuscript to build a bonfires that spell out the words "You suck!" if you don't stick to genre formulas... Also wanted to
HOST WPLC Dee R: Sorry guys, did we do Brag, and Tiff?
Lori Soard: I think Sally had a comment and it got lost in the shuffle
Fjm3eyes: sorry, that wasn't a question
Braguine: For Trounce: there are only 4 plots, neverteless millions of diferent stories are written around them. The big difference are characters and settings
Genjii555: say that the reason I have a hard time accepting plotting (Trounce too? ) is b/c I write literary fiction
Lori Soard: Genji, it all depends on what you're writing. Literary fiction is entirely different and I won't even attempt todefine it because it's very nature defies description really
Lori Soard: It is broad.
HOST WPLC Dee R: sorry, I got lost in the shuffle.
Genjii555: (sorry Donna... thought I was next)
Lori Soard: Doesn't always have a firm ending etc.
Lori Soard: ga
HOST WPLC Dee R: ga, Tiff
Genjii555: I did
Genjii555: jumped the gun
Kathi Smith 116: even literary fiction has plot, conflict and structure
Fjm3eyes: right Kathi
HOST WPLC Lyric: Look, protocol is off, because we're near the end. But please stay on topic
Werewolfsevn: In a way, can't you say that, instead of being stagnant, a character who does not change and ends up losing everything as a result can be compelling, even in commercial fiction? (ex: Requiem for a Dream or Primal Fear)
Spkale: I used to be a flying by the seat of my pants writer, and was darn proud of it. I wasted a lot of time. I was constantly rewriting and replotting. While I'm still not a strict plotter, I do have a clear beginning, middle and end.
Fjm3eyes: it wou.ld seem
HOST WPLC Lyric: Is that okay, Lori?
Werewolfsevn: ooops
WONiJACKS: Hill....I got a hit...!
Lori Soard: If that character CHOOSEs not to change and loses everything because of that, Werewolf, then I'd agree.
JES No Time: Had you heard that King killed most of the characters off because it was getting too complicated? ga
Lori Soard: Because it is a direct result of the character's action or inaction
Werewolfsevn: Good point
Spkale: I like that technique, Jes
WONiJACKS: Hi, AW....
AWeiss4338: Hi Woni
Lori Soard: LOL Jes. I'll have to try that sometime
DianeFarr: yes, that can be a very satisyfing tale - watching someone lose everything because they refuse to change, lol
JES No Time: King mentions it in his book on writing. The Stand was getting too complicated
AWeiss4338: Conflict is what makes or breaks a book. If you don't have it, it's a boring book. If you have it, it's fireworks.
Kathi Smith 116: successful seat-of-the-pants writers have an innate feel for plot, it just happens in their head instead of in an outline. doesn't mean they don't use the same plot structures
BrownDvs: I have a question.
GGWRIDER22: Titles do too
Lori Soard: Shoot, Brown
BrownDvs: Do you think villians who aren't inherently evil, villians who have pasts where they were good people are more interesting or less so?
Genjii555: No one's saying you shouldn't have conflict... what we were protesting was the rigidity in which you must present it
AWeiss4338: Night everyone, see you next week.
BrownDvs: Take care Weiss.
JES No Time: NIght AW
Fjm3eyes: bye AW
Lori Soard: Brown, I like villains that even when they do HORRIBLE things I can relate to a little bit.
Lori Soard: If I see the humanit in them.....
Lori Soard: humanity that is...
BrownDvs: Word.
Lori Soard: or some small part of myself or someone else...
AWeiss4338: Night.
Lori Soard: and I sympathize just a tiny bit, it makes the actions even more horrifying, in my opinion.
Lori Soard: Can I make an announcement?
DianeFarr: I've created villains that had no redeeming features in their past, but had some in their futures ... so they eventually became heroes. That was fun.
BrownDvs: Go for it.
Lori Soard: I just found out today that a short article of mine will be in Woman's WOrld in the second week of October
Spkale: Wahoo!
Lori Soard: Issue # 42
DianeFarr: way to go!!
BrownDvs: That sounds pretty cool Farr
JES No Time: Congrats!
BrownDvs: Congratulations Dr. Soard.
TrounceM13: That's excellent, Ms. Soard.
Genjii555: Congratulations Lori
Lori Soard: My girls are very excited because they will have their pics in there
Moon June Tune: What's the topic?
HOST WPLC Lyric: That's great Lori!!!!
Kathi Smith 116: great news, lori
Lori Soard: We're wrapping things up, Tune, but chatting about plots
HOST WPLC Dee R: Congrats, Lori
Lori Soard: Need for conflict or not etc.
HOST WPLC Dee R: I will have to look for that one.
Spkale: to plot or not.
TrounceM13: She meant the topic of your article, I think.
Mzdragonlady: My villains were children of the holocaust
Moon June Tune: Ah, thanks.
HOST WPLC Dee R: lol, Spkale, that is the question
HOST WPLC Lyric: Tell us the topic again and the magazine issue?
Lori Soard: Right....let me make a quick point about plot or not..
Recknor: Hey, Hill
DianeFarr: gotta go, y'all ... wonderful workshop, Lori ... g'nite! Diane's Home Page
Lori Soard: Sally made my brain wake up
Mzdragonlady: grown into men full of hate
HOST WPLC Lyric: bye Diane
Hillwithit: Yo, Reck. I plot, therefore I am.
Lori Soard: Magazine is # 42 Woman's World
Spkale: hut oh... that could be danger.
Recknor: You so right.
Lori Soard: Will be out in October
Lori Soard: I'll be on page # 3
Recknor: You da man.
Lori Soard: Topic is measuring cups
BrownDvs: That reminds me of an Eric Lensherr, dragonlady. He was just like that.
Lori Soard: LOL
Lori Soard: Anyway....plot or not....
Spkale: WOW #3 that is so kewl.
GGWRIDER22: synopsis and plot is there a difference?
Lori Soard: The beauty of KNOWIng the plot elements for a seat of pants plotter...
Braguine: PlotingHill Manor--your new address hill
BrownDvs: Yes
Spkale: Lordy yes.
Lori Soard: is that you do not have to write everything out but can plot as you go to a degree.
Lori Soard: Without missing anything.
Sunan21: Good night, thanks Lori, great info!
Spkale: what I learned from Dr. Lors.
Lori Soard: GGWrider, yes....a synopsis sums up your plot in writing, usually for an editor to consider your book for publication.
Lori Soard: Night, Sunan. Thanks for coming
Sunan21: my pleasure
TrounceM13: Thanks for the time, Ms. Soard.
Braguine: That was a good talk, Lori
GGWRIDER22: when an editor asks for a synopsis is he or she referring to your plot
Lori Soard: A plot is what happens in your story--not necessarily written out until the book is finished.
Genjii555: Yes, thanks much.
HOST WPLC Lyric: Before everyone goes
Lori Soard: Yes, GG..she wants to know the main conflict and characters and
HOST WPLC Lyric: I'd like to thank Lori for coming
GGWRIDER22: TKS
Lori Soard: the beginning middle and end
HOST WPLC Lyric: it was a wonderful talk Lori, thank you
Hillwithit: Thanks Lori, great talk!!
Lera al: Thanks, Lori!
HOST WPLC Lyric: ::::::clapping::::::::
Spkale: <><><><><><><><><><>
Lori Soard: Thanks for inviting me and sorry for the confusion of commercial vs. literary fiction
Werewolfsevn:
WriteWithHeart: thanks Lori
Braguine: Thank you , Lori
BrownDvs: :::::::claps for Lori Sword:::::::::
G1ft0fgabn0t: :::appplause:::
Moon June Tune: We'll have to do this again sometime.
HOST WPLC Lyric: Lori, can you come back another time?
Hillwithit: ::::::clapping::::::::
Spkale: you dinna sound confoosed...
HOST WPLC Lyric: we'd love to invite you again
JES No Time: Thanks for coming Lori
Werewolfsevn: On a non-full moon night...
Lori Soard: Sure, just email me, Sry
Lori Soard: LOL Werewolf
Deluge7: Interesting talk...or seminar.
Lori Soard: Thanks, Sally
HOST WPLC Lyric: well, I'm off guys. Lori, please stay as long as you'd like
Lera al: g'nite all!
HOST WPLC Dee R: Lori, this is one Log I will re-read many times.
HOST WPLC Dee R: thank you
HOST WPLC Lyric: guys be kind to her!
JES No Time: Night Sry, take care
HOST WPLC Dee R: night, Sry
HOST WPLC Lyric: night everyone
Recknor: I missed most of it, but thanks anyhow, Lori. <G>
Braguine: night Lyric
Moon June Tune: Ciao.
Lori Soard: Thanks, Dee. If you want more info on plotting, you can email me. I have more material n this topic.
Lori Soard: It might not be for everyone. Just depends on what you write.
Recknor: Hi, old
Lori Soard: You're welcome, Reck
oldamerico: Hi Recknor and gang
Kathi Smith 116: lori, very well done, thank you
Braguine: Hi Reck
Recknor: Hey, Brag
HOST WPLC Dee R: I might take you up on that one...
Lori Soard: Kathi, haven't seen you in a while. How is your writing going?
BrownDvs: Goodnight all
Recknor: Nite, Brown
Kathi Smith 116: haven't had much time to work on it lately, lori, unfortunately
Werewolfsevn: Night
Kathi Smith 116: sounds like you're doing great, glad to hear it
JES No Time: Night everyone
Recknor: Nite, JES
Lori Soard: Well, I hope things open up for you soon. I know how frustrating that is.
Lori Soard: Nite, Jes
G1ft0fgabn0t: thanks ofr a great session. nite y'all
Lori Soard: and Brown
HOST WPLC Dee R: My question had to do with Plotting in the Middle of the story....keeping it from sagging. I never got to ask it, cause of host duties
Kathi Smith 116: thanks, lori. i'll see you later
Lori Soard: Dee, that is a whole other topic but the best thing you can do is to remember to use your tests and trials that I mentioned.
Lori Soard: Start off by making your character face a test...and make things worse and worse...
Lori Soard: keep upping the stakes.
Lori Soard: Cut out anything that doesn't move the story forward.
Lori Soard: Or add something to the plot
Lori Soard: That really bogs a middle down.
Lori Soard: I do a lot of cutting in edits
HOST WPLC Dee R: that helps me...I think I'm printing out just that part...to read when I have a problem, lol
Lori Soard: LOL
Lori Soard: I know it sounds simplistic but think cause and effect
HOST WPLC Dee R: It almost reads like a poem
Lori Soard: Both big picture and for each scene
Lori Soard: A really great book to read that helped me with middles is
Lori Soard: Scene and STructure by Jack Bickham
HOST WPLC Dee R: I will look that one up...cause middles are my problem
Lori Soard: I was always the same way
Lori Soard: Another thing I do...
Lori Soard: is to use a plotting board
Lori Soard: Are you familiar with those?
HOST WPLC Dee R: I've read about them...tried one a few times
Hillwithit: I have a problem with my middle but that's because I don't go to the gym and eat like an asteroid is about to hit the earth and life as we know it.
HOST WPLC Dee R: I'm not an organized person...lol
Recknor: I just keep throwing rocks at my h/h, Dee. Bigger ones all the time.
HOST WPLC Dee R: lol, Hill..
Lori Soard: It's worth the time. It will help with your middle. Do it when you're finished writing.
Lori Soard: I need to hop off here y'all.
Lori Soard: Have to get up at 6 AM
Hillwithit: Thanks Lori!
HOST WPLC Dee R: Lori, thanks lots...
Lori Soard: If you have questions, feel free to email me
HOST WPLC Dee R: much appreciated.
Lori Soard: G'night
Deluge7: Eat like an asteroid...is that an unvisualizable image, Hill?
HOST WPLC Dee R: you were a great speaker
HOST WPLC Dee R: night
HOST WPLC Dee R: guys, I'm also off...got to work on sending out the log...
Recknor: Nite, Dee
HOST WPLC Dee R: Dale, looking forward to your session next week.
HOST WPLC Dee R: Night, Recknor
HOST WPLC Dee R: and all...
Deluge7: Thanks, Dee. I'm already reeling from crits.
Fjm3eyes: bye everyone...............
HOST WPLC Dee R: lol
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